Why have we decided to build a startup within monday.com?

Hi everyone, I'm Daria Wertheim, and you've reached Startup for Startup. In today's episode, we will discuss our decision to build a startup within Monday. Releasing new products is one of our main growth engines in the company, and one of our latest releases was Canvas, a product that is essentially a separated startup within Monday. So to talk about this topic today, I'm here with Roy Iman. Hi, Roy. Hi, Daria. Monday's co-founder and co-CEO, and Noam Ackerman. Hi, Noam. Hi, Daria. Which you're the entrepreneur leading Canvas, which is a startup inside Monday. Right. And we'll talk about it soon, about what it means. So we'll share today why we decided to start the startup, we'll talk about the decision to recruit an entrepreneur to work in Monday, and how practically the whole thing works. Let's start. Let's go. Yalla. So before we dive into this topic, Roy, let's talk about a little bit why are we doing this episode, and maybe we can even talk about why we're doing it in English. Sure. So we're doing it because like every episode, like we know, we thought about how it can help other companies and share, you know, what we've learned, what we're like struggling with to build a startup that is successful within a larger company. And I always felt in a lot of other companies, I saw that there is a reason that startup succeeds not within larger companies. And we tried a different angle about it, and I think it's worth sharing. So there are a few companies that, you know, start startups inside the company, but usually that's not how it's called, right? There is sometimes like the innovation department. It can even be called a startup. But what happens is that the company starts in a certain way, then it grows, and then it has a way that it works. And when they try to do a new initiative, they kind of use the same tactics as their grown company. First off, they put a lot of people in. They make a huge effort, and essentially those efforts are scaling before there is an actual product market fit. And you can't go jumping across that step. And we'll talk about Canvas and a lot of other stuff we're doing. It looks like, you know, there are other white boards out there. Okay? So we don't need the product market fit. The need is there. It's very clear. We know what we want to do, and we have a lot of need from Monday users. But at the end of the day, it's still like a hurdle you need to cross that you can't jump those steps, and you need to build it like every startup is starting. Very small, and give them time to grow. Okay, so before we dive into what Canvas is and how we did it on Monday, let's talk about a startup as a growth engine for a company. So it's one of the methods we use to grow as a company, right? We also have other growth engines like starting new departments. For example, Monday didn't have a sales department, and then we did have. And we also add new products to the Monday umbrella, right? So it's part of a larger conversation about growth engines. And every company has an S-curve. It looks like an S. That's why the name. So it starts slow, then it scales, and the scales part, it goes really up really fast, and then it flattens again when something matures. And it can be on a specific market, and then you need to add new markets or a specific audience or age group, and then you add other age groups or devices or a lot of other growth engines. And we had the episode about how we're adding all the time growth engines. And the trick is that a new S-curve in the beginning is flat. It takes a lot of time for that to grow. Until you see traction, until you see…

Customers… Yeah, so for each growth engine, it's a different story. For the sales team, it took us a while to ramp it up and scale it, but it was obvious the need was there, everything was there, and so it needed that effort of adding people and doing the right things and kind of changing the methodologies of how we do things, but for a new initiative completely, like a new product, you need to give it the time to find its path, and you know, like if you look at statistics, and I don't remember a book I read, like it's like only statistics on startups, like if you have like two entrepreneurs instead of one or three or like… How many fail, why they fail. All that stuff, so most of them fail, and like most of them don't end up where they started. Right. Okay, like you don't know, okay, we're going to do this, and you end up with a good company that does exactly what they wanted in the beginning, and I think that's one thing you need to allow an initiative inside the company to find its own path rather than, you know, dictate where it should go, and the objective should be, and we try to really replicate everything that there is in a startup. One is that it's not a lot of people, limited resources in a way, and the objective is to succeed rather than to, you know, have an exact audience and an exact use case and something like that is rigid. Wait, but before we jump into how we actually did it, I still want to focus on why, because adding more features and new products to our existing platforms sounds way easier and way more accessible than starting a brand new startup. So why did we choose to focus on and spend resources on this type of startup? Yeah, so first off, we are doing that. Like we're expanding the system Monday a lot, and that's the core growth engine of the company right now in any foreseeable future. It has like, I don't know, decades ahead of us of growth in that area. We're also releasing products on the Monday platform or with the Monday platform. We just released it like six months ago. But when we look longer term and wider into the vision of the company of improving work and helping people work better and giving them the power and the tools to do things their way, we see even a broader picture. And that's where we felt we can, you know, we have some synergy in a lot of other areas where we can create a new startup, a new initiative that in many ways it's easier to build something new that is not tied 100% into all the needs that we have on the main platform. That's why we can do it. Why? Because you can find new audience? First of all, that's the criteria we gave that it has to find a new audience. It can't be the same audience because we don't need to solve, like you said, solving more problems for the same audience we can do on the platform. We see that a startup should address a different audience. And also it has to be a startup that relates to Monday that has synergies with the vision we have. Because otherwise it's just like we don't aim to replace the ecosystem, right? Like if someone wants to build a startup they can go and do it. Yeah, otherwise you can build a cyber startup and we'll have nothing, no added value in that area, right? Yeah, and it's also like, yeah, it's not like we're not trying to open more areas that we don't have any synergies with. And so when we looked at, and for us it's looking at the beginning of work. Where does work start? Like how do people start building things and where do their problems start? And we saw that it starts in many areas. And that's where we currently focus our new products on. So maybe just to give a context, we'll dive into that more specifically later, but just to give context, Noam, you want to give a few words about what is Canvas, what you do? Yeah, so Canvas is an online whiteboard, basically. This term encapsulates a lot of use cases that people are doing inside these kind of tools. Basically, it started as a replacement for the traditional office whiteboard. And COVID accelerated the adoption of these kinds of tools when team gone hybrid, when people

needed to work from home, they needed some kind of collaboration space in order to collaborate together, in order to exchange ideas, brainstorms, etc. And it kind of became into something bigger than just a whiteboard. It became kind of a visual collaboration space for a team to work together across all kinds of use cases. All of them are work-related. And this is what we do at Canvas. And you're basically an entrepreneur, right? You had your own startup before joining Monday. Let's talk about that for a little bit. Yeah, so before I joined Monday, I had a startup for something like five years. The startup called Perceptive AI. We did AI for customer success, basically. We helped B2B SaaS companies, mainly at road stage, understand which customers are likely to churn, which customers are ripe for an upsell, cross-sell, etc. You raised money and everything. We raised money, we had customers, we operated for like five years. Out of them, three years on VC money. And it was until March 2020, something like this. Okay, so in March 2020, you closed the company. We can have a different episode about that. You closed the company and then what? You knew you wanted to work for an organization because it's a different experience than being an entrepreneur. Yeah, no, I didn't know what I wanted to do. And it's not a trivial question, surprisingly. Because you would think that an entrepreneur that for five years wrestled to stay above water and go after his dream and after his vision and ended up closing his company would want to find a place to settle and would want to find a place he could put his head for some years. But I didn't know what I wanted to do. I knew what I didn't want to do, but I didn't know what I do want to do. So in some way, I thought that maybe the best next thing for me would be to make another startup. In some way, this was the easiest path because as scary as it can be to be an entrepreneur and change the path from being an employee to an entrepreneur, the other way around can be as… It's more familiar. Yeah, exactly. I know the challenges that I'm going to face and these are familiar challenges. I know what I'm going to do. So this certainty is a huge factor. When I needed to think what I wanted to do next as an employee, I had a big uncertainty, a huge uncertainty of what's ahead of me. So to your question, no, I wasn't sure what I want to do. And then came this opportunity that I couldn't refuse. Why? Because eventually you are working for Monday, like you're not an independent entrepreneur. Because I understand that there is an opportunity here to do things that otherwise in other places I wouldn't do. First and foremost is working with Ray and Iran and other great people here to learn, to understand how I take an idea and bring it to product market fit. And this chasm of going from idea to product market fit is a place that most entrepreneurs fail. And then it becomes really no-brainer to come to a place where they say to you, come here and take an idea and take it to product market fit with us. We did it once, we know how to do it. Let's do it now together. With one correction. We did it once. We know what not to do. Yeah. But we have no guarantees that it will work. That's the beauty of product market fit. You fail again and again and again. Exactly, which is also a lot. Knowing what not to do is also a lot. So this is what…

What I saw in this opportunity, again, I didn't know what I'm coming to. I didn't know what it will be. And this uncertainty was kind of a good sign to me. Because as I said, all the things that I did know what they are, I didn't want to do. So this thing I said, OK, I don't know what it is. Let's try it. And you were looking for a place to learn. And I was looking for a place to learn, yeah, totally. Roy, we talked about it in previous conversations. You basically started at Wakes, right? You started Monday at another company. I started Monday four weeks. Yeah, they were the first customer. And Avishai, the CEO, there is a longtime friend. And after I closed my last startup, I came to him and I told him, you have to help me. I know how to build stuff. I know that people like them. But something wasn't working. And I didn't know what. And I knew that if I kept on going doing the same things, it will fail. I just understood it. And I think there is a point, and I meet a lot of entrepreneurs, some of them close to startup, there is a point that you are open to listen more than… Because a lot of us, and I don't know if all, but a lot starts from the passion to build stuff. So we started with a productivity tool from games. So it's not an enterprise productivity tool from games. And so the passion to build stuff was there. And I really wanted to learn how to do it. And Noam is a better student than I was. It took me like I think three years until I got how to look outside, not on what I want to build. But it's interesting because you're both talking essentially about the same experience, like failing at your first startup and then understanding there's still a lot to learn and then looking for the ways to do it, not necessarily completely by yourself or without the help of others. So maybe let's talk about how we actually do it here at Monday. Or maybe even before that, Roy, what was the profile you were looking for? Yeah, so it continues the last point that what we try to do here is what I feel would help entrepreneurs that are open to learning and want to learn that stuff, what I wanted and I got in a way, an ecosystem to learn, a place that they can really learn. And the toughest thing I think was to kind of prevent the company from helping Noam and preventing him from wanting to take help. Yeah, because I think it's like all the resources are here. Yeah, exactly. So everyone is interested about it. We have the sales that might want to come and sell it, but it's not mature. It's nothing yet. We need to give it time. People want to come and help in a lot of ways, like marketing, for example. So doing marketing in the scale that we're doing now is not the same as starting it. And when we started, I did it. I wasn't good, but it helped me learn enough so I can hire great people to do the marketing. And if we want to build a startup here, so I kind of forced Noam to do the marketing himself. So let's give all the context. You hired Noam as a single entrepreneur. Noam and I were debating before how to call it because we have a name for it in Hebrew. And we thought about Developreneur. You thought about it. I give you all the credit. Okay, thank you. I thought about it. So the idea is

We call it developer entrepreneur, but essentially it's like someone that can learn everything. Not because he's the best in everything, but so he can understand what he needs to bring and how to bring people that are better than him and not just say, okay, I'm outsourcing that to like, this is your side. Someone who can learn and can execute on everything. Yeah, so the developer side is harder to start off the ground. Like you don't like start building stuff. This is the longest learning curve. So we started there with the pre-request. Someone who already knows. But marketing, for example, you can do really bad marketing on his own. Only complement. And then bring people that will do it well. But the idea is to build ownership. It doesn't have to be one person. It can be like two people or whatever that have worked well together. I don't believe in like first time matches. Again, with that book with statistics, it said that if the match is recent, then the chances of the startup succeeding is not great. But why? I still want to focus on this part because you already have all the knowledge here. Why does Noam have to come and start everything from scratch? Because the knowledge we have is on a proven product market fit. And to build a new product market fit, you have to start with the knowledge we had when we were in that size. For example, managing a campaign of a million dollars or like a budget of a million dollars in performance marketing is not like managing a $500 budget. And that's what we started with Monday. The first campaign was $500. So the needs are different. The learning curve is different. At one point, you want to scale. At another point, you want to learn. So it takes a different skill set. And I think everyone here can do it, but I don't think it's their focus. So giving someone both these KPIs, it's hard. You have this million dollars here, and you need them to do X, and you have that $500 here. And you're asking something that is… No, you have to think completely differently. Yeah. And again, the $500 part, you should graduate from it very quickly. So there's no reason Noam shouldn't do it. And then you set a path of learning and improvement all the time. Learning and improvement and really quick learning and improvement. And I can give another example that Noam came to me and told me, like, hey, great, like the HR is helping me hire the first developer. And I said, no. And I went and I told them not to help him. I told him not to get that help. Even the HR not to help him. Why? Because they hired the first one, but then, you know, when it grows, they won't help them build. He needs to do that. He needs to know how to recruit people, how to get them on board. That's what startups do. You know, we just, like, copied that model. And I think that's where most companies fail. They think, oh, we have, like, a great HR team, so we'll be the best in hiring. But I think it doesn't build the competence inside the team. And then, you know, they become dependent in a way. But also in terms of resources of the company. So eventually, maybe the most different part in what you do, Noam, is that you don't need to raise money, right? Yeah, so we don't need to raise money. It doesn't mean that we have all the budget in the world. So we have a very strict, I won't say budget, but we do know exactly how much we spend on marketing, how much we spend on headcount, and we don't plan to, like, break those guidelines or the framework that we are currently working with because we want to stay lean, because we think it's important to stay lean at this stage, not because we don't want more money, because we think this is what's right for this stage that we're in. Yeah, so the question is how many resources is the company willing to…

to invest in this startup? Obviously now it's like in the beginning, so it doesn't need more than a seed funding, right? But if you ask me like in the future, we might just like do a, I wouldn't say even a budget. I would say like a budget is like usually yearly. So like we would do something like an investment, like here, take that money, do whatever you want with it. For the next milestone, for example. Yeah, and set a KPI and do like a board. And another thing we built is that I don't manage, I'm not his manager, I'm his chairman. Okay, so we invented a new word. It's very hard to set it up in our HR systems. That relation, because it doesn't exist. Okay, and so. And what does it mean like practically? Yeah, so for example, if I don't set his salary, he sets his salary. I just need to approve it. And like those kind of relations that, like, cause we trust him, he needs to build the company. He can do all those stuff. And that's like the type of freedom we're trying to create. Yeah, so now you're updating Roy and Eran, like they are your board members. So you're updating them like you would do to a board. Yeah, exactly. So we have two kinds of updates. We have our, we can call it board meetings. And we have our weekly updates, which is kind of like the same updates that I would send to my investors, like over email. Hey, this is the update. Look at our progress week over week and month over month. This is our KPIs. This is where we've been. This is where we are now. This is where we wanna go. And this is the good part. These are the parts that we are currently dealing with. We have all the, we set up all the update points that I feel that now they work pretty good for us. From one side, they let us move fast with autonomy. And from the other side, they keep us all aligned all the time. And we have like a good line of communication. If we need something, if we need to update or if we need to ask for something. But still, you came here to learn, right? You came here to gain knowledge you didn't have in the previous startup. So I'm imagining a case where you think there is a one path to go. And Roy, you think there is another path to go. And so like, where's the line? Where does the line go? So I think that one of the main things in learning, in entrepreneurship is that you learn by doing. You don't learn by sitting in a class and doing homework with your material. You learn by go out there and just doing things. And this is what we do. One of the things that I can say that I learned here and it just keeps on feeding itself is how fast you need to iterate and how fast you need to test things. And this is the real learning. Once you have this kind of mindset of just hypothesizing on a lot of assumptions, because at the end of the day, product market fit is not something that you can say do, it's not a fixed recipe, right? It's not one, two, three, four, and then you have product market fit. Yeah, so it's not like Roy has all the answers. Exactly, so. I don't have any of them. And I think when you ask the question, like when I have an idea and he has another one, like you meant product or something specific. Like the only idea I have is that he needs to release quickly to learn. Okay, so if he'll say, yeah, I want to release very slowly to learn, then we will have a discussion. Okay, but the execution itself, like that's all we try to do in the beginning is create a beat, a cadence of learning. Okay, so like the first thing is like payment. If our KPI is paying customers, you have to have payments. And like we talked about it in a lot of other episodes that we had in the podcast. So that's like the only way to learn, right? If like we want to learn by users and customers actions, not by their words. So it doesn't help me. So your opinion doesn't really matter here. My opinion on the product is as good as anyone else's. Okay, and then we need to test it. So if I'm good with ideas, fine, they can take them. But the better thing is to know how to measure and to know which idea proves to be right or wrong. So maybe let's give an example with the first product you worked on, Noam, because Canvas is actually not the first product you started working on. What was the first one? Okay, so the product was a file transfer service.

filedriver.com. If any paying filedriver.com users are listening, we didn't charge you anything. You actually got it for free. We're actually still getting paying users from filedriver. We are like 960 paying users right now. People are still paying. Yeah, it's up. It's up there. I don't do any marketing on it, but people are on a daily basis still sending files. Funny. Okay. So then you actually checked people would think they were paying, and then you would see, okay, this person agreed to pay. So this is an example for paying customers. Yeah, and one of the quickest learning we understood there that people are not paying for the services that we thought that they would pay. Meaning these are not like designers that send their Photoshop designs to their customers, and they are willing to pay. But these are grandmas that send photos of their children or, I don't know, their grandchildren or something like this. And more than 50% of the use cases were like personal use cases. Not work related. Not work related use cases. Yeah. And paying customers are, generally speaking, the use cases that are interesting to us were not that large piece of the pie as we thought. Yeah, and also we discovered after a year that it's a peripheral use case for a lot of storage, online storage companies like Drive and Dropbox and such. Meaning like? It's not a growing market. It's not something that's going anywhere. And then like we said, okay, even if it succeeds and we have more and more paying customers, it's not going to lead into the market. It's closing. It's not going to be a huge startup. Yeah, and even not like it's on a declining area. It's becoming not interesting. So just like you would do in an independent startup, this is where you would find out you don't have a big enough market and you would probably decide to go in a different direction. Yeah, and pivot. Okay, so you decided to go in a different direction and then what? What, you just start ideating? And then we started ideating just like founders would do when they decided they want to pivot.

And we didn't start to ideate on like, okay, let's do like cyber for railways or something like this, because we have… I actually know a company that does that. I know. There are a few, I think. Because we do have a framework of what is interesting to us, right? As Roy said, we are not a VC. We have an agenda, we know what we want to do, we know the markets that are interesting to us. And in this kind of framework, we started to ideate. And actually, pretty fast, it didn't take too long before we started to discuss on this market of online whiteboards. It was obvious that this is a huge market. It was really obvious that this market is in hyper growth, extreme hyper growth, and that it has to do a lot with what we want to achieve here in Monday at the future as well. So it was kind of… Yeah, I think it was a natural path because from the files, like we had a vision for the files. It's like an area that didn't change for years, like transferring files. So like, why not view them online? Why not? Like, why is it a separate file all the time? Why not do a collaboration area? And then… And then from there… Yeah, it's like very similar, like the vision we had for the files transfer was like very much in line with what we wanted to achieve with the whiteboard. Yeah, so it was like you developed it on top of the previous idea. Yeah, it was, let's say, easier. But like, I think we were bold enough to also like let go of the old idea and all the stuff there. And you know, we saw, yeah, it's like very similar. Like the vision we had for the files transfer was like very much in line with what we wanted to achieve with the whiteboard. So it was… Yeah, I think it was a natural path because from the files, like we had a vision for the files. It's like an area that didn't change for years, like transferring files. So like, why not view them online? Why not? Like, why is it a separate file all the time? Why not do a collaboration area? And then… And then from there… Yeah, it's like very similar, like the vision we had for the files transfer was like very much in line with what we wanted to achieve with the whiteboard. Yeah, so it was like you developed it on top of the previous idea. Yeah, it was, let's say, easier. But like, I think we were bold enough to also like let go of the old idea and all the stuff there. And you know… And then from there… And then from like a base stage or so, but we kind of let go of everything and said like, okay, let's go in another direction. And I think that's maybe the magic, that's the most important part of doing something successful is that you can do those things. And if you're like set on… And imagine like a large company, okay? They start with a 10 people team, okay? Like a developer, a designer, a product, like a lot of… Everything you need, yeah. Yeah, and then it takes them a lot longer to figure out they're not on the path. And it takes them a lot longer to change it. And if there is no ownership, they're just… They're built as a team, okay? And there is no one person who's like supposed to kind of figure it out in the beginning. And they already invested a lot in trying to create this idea. And so there is a momentum, okay? There's an initial momentum on something that is completely unproven. Right. Okay, and that's the problem. And I think the magic of building a startup is that you let go of these things. Quickly. And you, yeah, and you look the truth in the eye and you look the… You really are just looking at the market and what people need, what they want and all those stuff and adjust like to that. And your opinion doesn't matter. You want to win in a way. But you don't know how. Okay, so… And I think that's more important than any resource. It's more important than, you know, having the, you know, one of the world's best marketing teams help you. It's more important than the, like, best HR team helping you or legal or whatever. It's not about the success in that stage. It's not about the environment you create. It's about like… Getting to know the market and actually being out there. Yeah, able to change and able to move fast and iterate fast and learn. And change. Right. And it's worth mentioning that we hired the first team member outside of Monday to Canvas after we announced Canvas at the earning calls. Meaning all the time that we spoke, like 10 minutes about FireDriver, it was me and Dana, the freelance designer that now is working full time at Monday. And we were just the both of us until we started Canvas. And the first hire was actually after we released Canvas. So this comes to emphasize the point of how crucial it is to be lean and how it helped us to move fast. Yeah, and like you also, you learn things and only then you hire the next people and not wait for them to do the work instead of you. Totally. Okay, let's talk about challenges. So what's challenging about your work, Noam? So I think that there are things that are the same.

things that are different if I compare it to being like an entrepreneur with your own startup. I think that the things that are the same are basically the hard part. So, you know, so reaching product market fit is the same, is as hard as same as reaching product market fit in an independent startup, right? The fact that we are inside Monday doesn't give us any advantage. Maybe it even gives us a disadvantage in a way because we are under the brand of Monday. So people are expecting some kind of product readiness, some kind of, I don't know, enterprise readiness, CAD readiness that we are not in that position yet. So in some sense, the fact that we are under Monday pushes us where other startups are not getting pushed in the perspective of customers and what they expect and et cetera. So I think reaching product market fit, aligning to the brand of a successful company, but as a standalone startup with extremely few resources are probably some of the challenges that we are facing. And also as Ray said, like aligning the entire company around what Canvas is, what we need, what we are, what we aren't, and what is the interface between Monday and Canvas internally, and how we can from one end get all the resources we need with the urgency we need and how we can communicate it internally so people understand from the other and give us the autonomy that is required. So it is a very delicate balance to maintain. And I think, so I think those are the main challenges and the benefits are that, of course, you don't need to raise money. You have all the logistic facilities that you don't need. Right, you have an office. You have an office. It's a big deal for early stage startups. You have an office, you have like the legal services, you have like Roy and Ron, you know, that are really like in the details and you can like ask them and like get their point of view. And you basically are just being left to focus on product users and reaching product market fit, which is like the fun part. Wait, why not create like 10 startups within Monday? Because we think it's like, it's a matter of time. Okay, like I do think like we need the chairman thing. We take it seriously. And so it's a matter of capacity. And focus. And focus and yeah, ability, but we are open for a lot more, you know, like we are thinking of new areas. And why not create like a corporate VC where you can just invest in startups that are somehow related to Monday, but they're not? Yeah, but then it doesn't become a synergy. That's like something else completely. You invest in the ecosystem. We invest in our vision and set of tools. Okay, so it's not contradictory to each other, but like. Yeah, different practice. Okay, so maybe we'll end with tips for companies that are thinking of doing, going for that growth engine. So I think that companies that wants to take like this kind of initiatives, they need to adapt the mindset of like what it means being startups. Being a startup is not another project inside a company that you can just give them like a fixed timeline, fixed resources and fixed KPIs and say like, go do it or else you will die because this is the sure way to kill this kind of initiatives. You think that's how companies do it for their teams? I think that it's not that obvious that reaching product market fit, like for companies, for internal companies that like, they have a lot of structured things to do and suddenly come this kind of startup that is unstructured and it has an unstructured way of doing things and need to understand that there isn't a guaranteed way to reach product market fit. They need to adapt this mindset of durability and of grit that founders have in order to help entrepreneurs get the confidence that they have what it takes in order to succeed. Yeah.

We had a talk with management here and we pretty much agreed that like they shouldn't get like help, that we're going to give startups the ability to do it. And I can tell you after that conversation, I worked super hard to make that true because it's interesting for everyone. We announced it, everyone want to help and Noam wants to get help, but that's like, it's very hard to create that. Like it's 100% on you set up. So you actually ask them not to help. Yeah. And so, and I asked Noam not to, because it's easy for everyone. It's fun. It's interesting. It's like, why not? And so. And it's accessible. And it's not negative. It's very positive if we want to help. It's a startup, I know you get help wherever you can. And why not? And so like to create the setup that a startup gets, okay, we had to work hard and we had to like differentiate. Like for example, the office space, you said like, I don't think it's like that big of a skill. Okay. Like, no, you also need to find your own office. Okay. So it's like, who cares? Yeah. That's not a big deal, but. Yeah. But then like raising money, you might say, yeah, you need to prove yourself. It's like helped us a lot during the times like to raise money. Right. It helps you understand the story of the company. Yeah. And tell the story and all that stuff. So I think there, there's a point and it's very personal. Okay. Like each entrepreneur, like it might help. It might not. It might like, there's maybe other ways to kind of check up on yourself every year or so instead of just like raising money. And we probably want to do it anyway, you know, like if we start creating a budget, so to get the next budget, they'll need to raise it kind of. Really embrace that startup mindset. Yeah. And because it works, you know, that's like, it's the same challenge. It's fun. It's so, but to create that setup is very hard. I think it was hard for us and everyone was for it and on the same page. So if you also don't agree inside the management, so it will be harder. So I think it's not trivial. That's my point. Okay. We'll end now. So thank you, Roy. Thank you, Daria. Thank you, Noam. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Startup for Startup. Startup for Startup. Startup for Startup. Startup for Startup. Startup for Startup.